Ferocious Bite

This is the rogue equivilant to eviscerate

This is the druid equivalent to Eviscerate.

Use against bleed immune or to finish off an enemy that won't survive for 3+ticks of rip. Damage pales compared to rip.

Remember that this can crit and rip cannot, so if you are looking for PvP burst damage, this is your baby.

Keep in mind that this skill drains ALL your remaining energy. So if you have an OoC proc up I wouldn't recommend using this ability unless it will kill the Mob/player you're attacking.

Otherwise the proc will be wasted as you'll have to wait for your energy to refill again.

I think this is really core to most any debate on an instant ability like this vs. a DoT like rip in PvE... It's all very situational. Against trash in instances or random mobs in questing, you can't look at just the overall damage of rip and say it's better -- like others have said, if you've built up 3-5 combo points and the mob has less than 1/3 of his health left, that fight's not gonna last the full 12s of rip's effect. FB will easily outdamage rip in that scenario, and can crit as well.

Boss fights last significantly longer than those scenarios, and given that rip isn't effected by armor and gains bonuses to its bleed effect from stuff like mangle, there's no contest at all for damage -- you use rip over FB without hesitation.

NOM!

This ability according to cataclysm tooltip will not be a waste of energy if you are above 35 energy like it is now as it will do up to 100% more damage for up to 35 more energy, meaning that it will have exactly same damage per energy output if you use it at 35 or 70 or anything in between, which is a very nice change.

OoC proc will negate the base cost, so you get 100 energy to damage conversion. Even without OoC up you'd still loose 100% of your energy

If you're fighting equal level non elite mobs and your Atp is decent, you'll never see Rip's full potential, since the mob usually bites the dust before your 5 CP Rip has ticked out. After all, Bite is a finishing move and after using it your target should be dead or at least at very low health.

With 100 Energy damage would be (raw)
(4.1 X 65 = 266.5)
1 point: 525.5 - 558.5 dmg
2 point: 694.5 - 727.5 dmg
3 point: 863.5 - 893.5 dmg
4 point: 1032.5 - 1065.5 dmg
5 point: 1201.5 - 1234.5 dmg
And attack power is extra dmg, right? what percent of attack power is added as dmg?

Not sure if you're for or against the change Abrin. You say that it nerfs PvP burst (which is obviously the intention) and will also be easier to use in a PvE rotation.

If there wasn't any extra energy used, it would be eviscerate. Anyway, if you don't want it to consume any extra energy, just cast it as soon as you can before your energy caps out? Job done.

Anyway, I got crit for 10396 with FB, having over 500 resilience. That's a ridiculous amount, and the nerf was needed.

Anyway, I got crit for 10396 with FB, having over 500 resilience. That's a ridiculous amount, and the nerf was needed.

I haven't checked to see how things are now, but before the change my FBs crit for that much. The thing is, I would only use FB if I had 5CPs up, TF ready, and had <40 energy, which means the "pvp burst" nerf is a nerf in name only, since most ferals never used FB with a bunch of energy ready to go.

I have to side with Abrin...this change was just for looks. 95% of the play mechanics of 95% of all the ferals in the world won't even notice it. In fact, I've come to call this chance a "berf," since it's a buff in that it helps protect against an accidental FB destroying your energy pool, but in theory, it does result in lower dmg numbers...assuming you were playing like a total n00b. I don't know anyone who would FB at 5CPs with 100 energy when they could have maimed and tossed in 2 shreds, which would have resulted in about the same total dmg, only leaving you with at least 2CPs and a stun on your target.

For PvE, FB is still mostly worthless.

Conclusion, this change did nothing except give the players hope that one day they'll remove the stupid energy sink portion in this ability, thereby making it useful.

EDIT:
I forgot to touch on how little 500 resil is in the current system. At lvl 70, the resil cap was around 400 or so. At 80, the resil cap is 1200, which means 500 res doesn't go nearly as far as it would at 70; it's about on par with having 200 or so resilience in TBC, and we all know how well that would work.

When could you learn ferocious bite before cataclysm?

I've noticed (at LEAST between levels 17-22), that the tooltip says 20 energy, but still uses the 35 energy (plus up to the additional 35) when used. Which makes it kind of annoying, since when you have 20 energy, it shows the ability as usable when in fact it's not. Is this the same problem with all levels? Or is there only a select few that are having this problem right now?

Patch 4.2 PTR notes now include:

Ferocious Bite damage has been increased by 15%. In addition, its base cost has been reduced to 25 energy and it can use up to 25 energy, for up to a 100% damage increase.

A huge boost to this ability. Most likely to make it actually worthwhile in PVE on targets above 25%. Currently Shred is superior.

Your post is well thought out and well written, and while I haven't checked your math, you certainly seem to have done your homework. The problem, as usual, is in the wording. Berserk doesn't double your energy, it halves energy costs of abilities. The energy cost of ferocious bite is 35 energy, meaning if you pop it with berserk up, the ability will cost 17-18 energy. The effect of the ability, the part that empties your energy bar and converts it into damage would be unchanged. Think about it a second and you'll see what I mean. The cost is 35, the rest of the energy that disappears isn't the cost, it's part of the effect of the ability, which in essence is a secondary cost. Berserk will reduce the primary cost, but not the secondary effect.

What's more, if you have a OoC proc, the cost of FB will be 0, with or without berserk. The issue, is that with berserk running, the secondary cost of FB is now doubled because you get twice the effect out of each point of energy that you're sacrificing.

Finally, for raid DPS, using this move could prove to gimp your SR and DoT rotations by not only sucking up all those combo points you have on a target, but leave you with no energy for which to replenish them. Usually I have to pop TF just to keep them all rolling smoothly (if I get a little shred happy or run into a streak of non-crits), which means there's a very small window of opportunity to use this move and not gimp your dps cycle. Don't even get me started on using it with berserk up either...it just doesn't work. Sure, my dps cycle may just have been refreshed and now this pesky raid boss has 5 combo points and berserk still has 8 seconds left and I still have 70 energy...I could pop this, and probably crit for around 10k and still be able to keep my dps cycle up. However, after that I'll just be sitting there auto attacking waiting for either an OoC proc or the energy to use a move. Now, if I instead choose to just keep spamming shred, I have 5 GCDs for which I can spam shred, a move with will crit roughly half the time, and for roughly 6k dmg. Now let's say I shred 5 times in that window, and it crits twice...right there I will have surpassed the dmg I would have done with FB, and that's not counting the other 3 shreds which are each doing impressive dmg on their own.

FB makes for some fun, big numbers, but I still don't like the move. Even in PvP...I find myself hitting maim if it's up and finishing with shred spams. I see FB as a desperation move in a life and death battle when all is not going well...like say, against a rogue who's got 5k health left who just dodged all the CC you needed to sit him down so you could shred him to death, and the rest of your defensive CDs are blown. Your own health dwindling, what more can you do than mash that FB hotkey and hope for the best? This is of course assuming you have 5 CPs and a bleed on the target :P

Currently the tooltip of this ability is wrong: The energy cost is not 25 + (up to) 35 for +100% dmg, but 25+25 energy.

This can be seen ingame as well as in patch 4.2 notes:
"Ferocious Bite damage has been increased by 15%. In addition, its base cost has been reduced to 25 energy and it can use up to 25 energy, for up to a 100% damage increase."
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/patch-notes/4-2-0

The +35 energy in the tooltip were probably just forgotten since the ability did cost that much before.

dwarf rogues have ferocious bite too. watch those knee caps ;)

What? Dwarfs? I thought they were Gnomes... Man my cow needs better glasses...

This ability would be a lot more useful if it didn't have the huge drawback of sucking away all your energy. It would be nice if that piece was removed, but, say, extra damage was added depending on the number of bleeds on the target. (To make it different than eviscerate, which I am sure was the goal around making it a pseudo-execute) Anything, really, or just removing the energy-drain. The damage gained is really never worth the energy cost... I use this ability about as much as tiger's fury. (Though, heh, given the buff TF is getting in WotlK, I'm sure I'll be using that a lot more.)

(9.4I'm curious how Berserk might combine with this talent. Imagine that you have 100 energy, have just popped Berserk, and are fortunate enough to have an Omen of Clarity proc. Would Berserk effectively double the energy applied for the lump energy dump? For this initial calculation, I will ignore the talents that modify this attack. I'm not sure of correct epic AP values at level 80, but lets conservatively assume 6000 AP and an active savage roar to make the total AP 8400.

If Berserk does stack with Ferocious Bite, a Level 80's 5-point FB cast on OoC after Berserk will hit an armorless opponent for:
(1570 to 1710)+(9.4*200) +(8400*200/410) = (1570 to 1710)+1880+4098 = 7548 to 7688 (non-critical)
That is nothing to laugh at, and lets hope Blizzard left that backdoor in there for us. Now considering some of the additive effects from talents.
Multiply by 1.15 for Feral Aggression, add 131 damage for Tiger's Fury, and multiply by 1.1 for Naturalist. That makes the non-critical damage range 9692 to 9869. That is insane, and don't forget that almost every one of these attacks will crit. Talents alone will give a 65% crit chance on bleeding targets (6% Sharpened Claws, 5% Leader of the Pack, 4% Master Shapeshifter, 50% Rend and Tear) and we can assume absolute 20% minimum crit chance from gear.

Suddenly we are looking at optimally timed crits of 20353 to 20725 about 85% of the time.

If Blizzard wasn't very careful to omit Berserk's effect on FB, a druid with the right talents can hit 5 combo points and if OoC procs, then Tiger's Fury (which will add 60 energy), Berserk...and go to town. So long as the bleed doesn't come off while you wait, a druid's expected damage from FB will be 0.15*(9692+9869)/2 + 0.85*(20353+20725)/2 = 1467 + 17458 = 18925.

In other words, if Berserk does stack with the full FB effect and you get a well-timed 5-combo point OoC proc, waiting on Ferocious Bite >>> Rip. PVP Optimal.

By the way, even without an OoC proc, FB would only cost 18 energy under the effects of Berserk, so you would probably lose ~25% of that expected damage.

PS - I'm not sure whether TF is applied before or after Naturalist, but I assumed before for these calculations. If you have any corrections to these numbers, feel free to throw them in. I'm not pretending that my numbers or logic are near perfect.

I am both for and against the change. With regards to PvP, the nerf to FBs burst was needed. From a PvE standpoint removing the extra energy use ENTIRELY would make it usable in a PvE rotation(basically Eviscerate). Even on a good PC, with good reflexes, and spamming FB it will still eat up extra energy(due to lag, GCDs, reflex time) which lowers the Damage per Energy.

This 3.0.9 change removed the burst aspect without addressing the PvE concern of a lot of feral druids.

Its your damage on bosses that matters, not your damage on trash. And on bosses you'll have enough time to use Rip.

Yes you will get the base cost of FB for free and 100% energy to damge conversion. But the real beauty of OoC is that it lets you use two skills for the price of one, because one will be free.

But if you use it on FB all of you energy will be drained so you sacrifice the ability to use a skill right after...will you get a slightly larger FB?

Of course.

Will it make up for missing out on a free shred or mangle?

Not even close.

Solo PvE and raid/party PvE for cats use different finishers.

All damaging or healing skills have math like this as they are all (or at least the vast majority) affected by SP, AP or weapon damage. You don't see that in game, you see something like this: 5 points: 3320-3460 damage Like it or not, the fact is that this is a video game, and everything in it is affected by, and can only exist because of, intense mathematical calculations. Edit: And to make this less "mathy" for you, the damage of this attack is increased by 35% of your attack power (at 5 combo points). Not that difficult.

Level 32, according to Wowpedia. It was put in in patch 1.3.0.

If you have an Omen of Clarity proc up and twenty-five energy, will your Ferocious Bite be as strong as no Omen of Clarity and fifty energy? I've tried to find out just from observation but Ferocious Bite's damage range is so wide I can't tell.

The relationship between Ferocious Bite and Berserk as of 5.4.2 is as follows:
It will use 12.5 initial energy then about 1 second later it will use a further 12.5 energy while Berserk is active.

Rip can now crit, my rip crits crit for over a thousand on a 5 point rip. I am a new 80, so a decked out feral druid well get alot more than that. Plus, your Shreds can now add more time to your rip, I forget how. It might be a glyph or a talent, good if someone could confirm.

Eviscerate dmg is increased by AtP

dont forgot dwarf rogues with stoneform

In WotLK The Energy:Damage conversion scales. At lvl 80, it does(at 5 points) 1570-1710 damage plus 24% of attack power, plus 9.4 and 0.24% of your AP per every 1 energy converted.

So, with 100 Energy, 2470-2610 damage plus 49% of your attack power. A nice little bone thrown at those who accidentally use too much energy on this baby.

That's Pre-Talents.
Combined with its additional 50% chance to crit against targets that have a bleed effect on them, and its potential 15% damage increase if you put points into Feral Aggression, this could be a nice finisher. No, it won't compare to Rip, but that frost mage kiting you in cat form with 5 CPs on him is about to get a nasty surprise when you pop Feral Charge(Cat) and a nice fat Bite.

Actually, if a mage is kiting you, you'd prolly rather use Maim, but you get the point.

I personal like this finishing move in Hc's then it is the last target or on a boss, and they only got a few % left and you got a few CP's left. Cause using Rip will not be that effectiv, due to the few secs the target have back.

Berserk will only cut the initial activation cost, 35 energy, in half. This means it will just add 17 extra energy worth of damage rather than doubling the benefit you get from the energy you dump into the attack, which is what I think you're getting at here. After all, using Ferocious Bite while under an OoC proc will still empty your energy bar, treating the attack like it was triggered with +35 energy. This says to me that there's a server-side event that is triggered after you cast FB that empties your energy bar and adds that on as extra damage. Also, having used it while Berserked, I

Gonna leave this one to the people that know the numbers a bit better than I do. I was having a talk with a guildie about DPS and I was trying to tell him Rip is gonna be better DPS than Bites. We were getting some pretty beefy Bites and it seemed to be comparable, is this true?

I'm having this problem and it's annoying the hell out of me. It says 23 energy and it lights up at 23, but I'll spam it and it won't go off until after I get 40 energy.

i'm a troll druid on echo isles level 8 not talents or anything and it lists the energy cost as 17 o_O i don't know if its a scale with level energy cost like lower levels its cheap and at higher levels its the full price or what... gonna have to do more stumbling around to see if it actually uses up 17 when used

It actually isn't, you see this move will eat up all of your energy no matter what (even with OoC procced), and being a druid if this ability doesn't crit; it will do minimal damage. It also recieves no benefit from mangle.

Much less than 5-combo rip that adds 24% AP.

Correct, Coriaga.But you need to take into account that Rip's damage isn't reduced by your opponent's armor. Whereas Ferocious Bite is reduced.

"that point is kinda moot if you spec faerie fire (feral)." But theres no way for a rogue to get rid of rip (besides Luffa) :P A smart rogue would CoS (Cloak of Shadows) to get rid of the FFF before vanishing, so rip is still a good option. (Rake does well also, however)

A Single Rip does ~93% of your Attack Power over its duration before crits, Ferocious Bite is 44%, is reduced by armor, and only has a 25% higher chance to crit. Ferocious Bite is nothing to Rip.

3.0.9 Patch Note:

Ferocious Bite: This ability now only uses up to 30 energy in addition to its base cost.

I'm normally not one cry foul so quickly, but this change is irritating. The 3.0.9 change is a nerf to feral PvP burst while still allowing it to eat up extra energy. Removing the extra energy conversion would allow FB to be used in a PvE rotation, and address the PvP burst concern. Edit:Clarity

This tooltip is absolutely hideous. Blizzard said they wanted to do away with mathy stuff like ArP but mathy stuff like this is still around...

According to wowwiki it's 15.26% or 0.1526. The actual formula for a 5 combo point, rank 6 Ferocious Bite is 0,1526*AP + 2.7*[energy - 35] + 783

the thing about rip is that it isnt effect by armor. while i agree in most cases rip sucks, against high health high armor mobs rip might sill be the way to go. also, ripping a rogue prevents him from vanishing on you. but that point is kinda moot if you spec faerie fire (feral).

Whyy don't they remove the energy-damage conversion, god!

That's nothing, watch this! 500k revenge crit! Now train harder, live inside your character! If it dies, you die! FOCUS!

CC with this at 100 energy would have the result of the base effect but with 135 energy converted into extra damage. CC removes the cost.